Happenstance Theory Demonstration
This discussion centers on the presentation, “Happenstance Theory Demonstration.” After viewing the presentation, choose 1 question below to post to the discussion.
How does Krumboltz identify the factors that are influencing the client’s decision making? Give specific examples.
What are some of the specific worldview generalizations that the client holds and how does Krumboltz handle these?
Compare and contrast Krumboltz’ Happenstance theory to Holland’s trait and factor theory. Which do you prefer and why?
TRANSCRIIPT
Creating More Satisfying Lives: A Demonstration of the Happenstance Learning Theory Sponsored by the Japan Career Development Association (JCDA) Ryoji Tatsuno, President of JCDA
00:00:00John Krumboltz Caroline,-
00:00:15Establishing context and expectations for today’s activities
00:00:15John Krumboltz -you and I are here making a film for the JCDA and it’s gonna be seen by hundreds or thousands of people, and we are going to talk about, ah, career counseling and we’re actually going do some career counseling and you have volunteered to be a client and I don’t know what you’re going, what’s your problem is or what’s your concern is, but we’re just gonna play it by ear and, ah, make it up as we go along.
00:00:50Open-ended questioning to elicit client concerns
00:00:50John Krumboltz And so, I’m ah, I’m curious as to, ah, what kind of, ah, concerns you have and, ah, ah, what kind, what, what brings you here today? What’s on your mind?
00:01:00Caroline Lee Uhm, well now, I’m a third year in my doctoral program, so I’m kinda thinking about what I wanna do after, uhm, I graduate… (crosstalk)
00:01:10John Krumboltz Uh hmm. (crosstalk)
00:01:10Caroline Lee …and what would be the best career options to…
00:01:10John Krumboltz Uh hmm. (crosstalk)
00:01:10Caroline Lee …uhm, for me.
00:01:15John Krumboltz Hmm.
00:01:15Caroline Lee And I’m kind of considering different options and I’m not really sure which direction I should go and what would be the most fulfilling…
00:01:20John Krumboltz Uh hmm.
00:01:20Caroline Lee …uhm, for me.
00:01:25Guessing about the feeling desired from the options
00:01:25John Krumboltz Well, you wanna do something that’s gonna make you happy, right?
00:01:25Caroline Lee Yes.
00:01:25John Krumboltz You do. Ah, so what, what kind of, ah, options are you thinking about?
00:01:30Caroline Lee Uhm, well I’m thinking about, uhm, being licensed as a psychologist.
00:01:35John Krumboltz Uh hmm.
00:01:35Caroline Lee Uhm, and I’m also thinking maybe working in, uhm, a university setting, maybe as, ah, either professor. Uhm, so… (crosstalk)
00:01:50John Krumboltz Uh hmm. (crosstalk)
00:01:50Caroline Lee I’m not really sure if I wanna practice, uhm… (crosstalk)
00:01:50John Krumboltz Uh hmm. (crosstalk)
00:01:50Caroline Lee …psychology, as a psychologist or I should, uhm, go more at the academic route. (crosstalk)
00:02:00John Krumboltz Uh hmm. (crosstalk)
00:02:00Caroline Lee Uhm, and then do counseling on the side, so I’m not really sure.
00:02:00John Krumboltz Okay.
00:02:00Assessing the urgency of an immediate decision
00:02:00John Krumboltz All right. But, uhm, but do you feel that you need to decide right now?
00:02:10Caroline Lee Uhm, I feel a little bit of pressure to decide just coz, uhm, if I wanted to get license as a psychologist, I would need to start looking for post doc internships.
00:02:20John Krumboltz Uh hmm.
00:02:20Caroline Lee And that would need to occur probably within the next year. So, I know like I always change later on, but if want to be licensed, there is like, I feel like there’s a certain path I need to be taking.
00:02:35Paraphrasing client and suggesting a double benefit
00:02:35John Krumboltz So what you’re saying, if you need to be licensed as a psychologist, you need to complete this, ah, post doctoral training.
00:02:40Caroline Lee Uh hmm.
00:02:40John Krumboltz You have to get a total of three thousand hours of… (crosstalk)
00:02:45Caroline Lee Yeah. (crosstalk)
00:02:45John Krumboltz Experience.
00:02:45Caroline Lee Uh hmm.
00:02:45John Krumboltz Uhm, and with that, ah, that would be licensed as a psychologist, maybe help you also in finding an academic position?
00:02:55Caroline Lee Perhaps yeah.
00:02:55John Krumboltz So it wouldn’t be necessarily incompatible?
00:03:00Caroline Lee Yeah, Yeah. Uhm, I think that could be compatible also with looking for a job that’s just time wise. I’m also concerned about being able to, uhm, finish my dissertation to look for a post doc, uhm, continue my internship now.
00:03:20John Krumboltz Uh hmm.
00:03:20Caroline Lee While still, uhm, focusing on which, uhm, career I want to, to have in the future.
00:03:30Asking client to fantasize a future job offer
00:03:30John Krumboltz Le, le, let me ask you a sort of a strange question.
00:03:35Caroline Lee Okay.
00:03:35John Krumboltz Ah, suppose that you could, uhm, decree a miracle and all of a sudden, you had an offer of, of a, a, a job that was just so beautiful, so perfect, so delightful that you just would say, ” Oh, yes, yes, yes, yes, I’ll take it.”
00:03:55Caroline Lee Uh hmm.
00:03:55John Krumboltz What would that offer have to be, ah, what would it or how could it be that would make you feel that way?
00:04:00Caroline Lee Uhm, a job that, uhm, had flexible hours,
00:04:05John Krumboltz Yeah.
00:04:05Caroline Lee you’re not inside the whole entire day,
00:04:10John Krumboltz Yeah.
00:04:10Caroline Lee uhm, interaction with people.
00:04:10John Krumboltz Yes.
00:04:15Caroline Lee I would want to feel like I’m helping or, uhm, being able to assist people… (crosstalk)
00:04:20John Krumboltz Uh hmm. (crosstalk)
00:04:20Caroline Lee …in one way or another.
00:04:20John Krumboltz Uh hmm.
00:04:20Caroline Lee So, some kind of element of, uhm, just helping and also, uhm, good pay…
00:04:30John Krumboltz Yes.
00:04:30Caroline Lee …and, uhm, uhm,
00:04:30Making fantasy more specific
00:04:30Caroline Lee I think, good, uhm, any flexible schedule would be, definitely a big part of that. (crosstalk)
00:04:40John Krumboltz All right. Now, but now let us make more specific now.
00:04:40Caroline Lee Okay.
00:04:40John Krumboltz Suppose the, ah, closure of home denied and, ah, a telephone rings and you picked it up and, ah, somebody says to you, “Are, are you Caroline Lee?,” you say, “yes”, “well, I have an offer for you and I wanna tell you about it”. What, what would that offer be specifically, and, and you’re gonna have flexible hours…
00:05:05Caroline Lee Uh hmm.
00:05:05John Krumboltz ..”and you got, and, and we’re gonna pay you, ah, five hundred thousand dollars a (laugh) year to start…
00:05:10Caroline Lee Uh huh.
00:05:10John Krumboltz …ah, with guaranteed raise up to, ah, whatever units”, I want you to sort of fantasize as to what, ah, what would be, and what, and what kind of work would you be doing, see, to fantasize a little bit… (crosstalk)
00:05:20Caroline Lee Yeah. (crosstalk)
00:05:25John Krumboltz …more about it.
00:05:25Caroline Lee Uhm, I suppose, I can think of a couple different things. I think one would be an offer to maybe work part time at, like in University and Counseling Center…
00:05:35John Krumboltz Okay.
00:05:35Caroline Lee …and then other would be, part time working at, uhm, maybe like a community clinic focusing on Asian-American mental health issues coz those are my research interest…
00:05:50John Krumboltz Uh hmm. Uh hmm.
00:05:50Caroline Lee …so, uhm, I would think ah,
00:05:50John Krumboltz Uh hmm. (crosstalk)
00:05:50Caroline Lee those two kind of things pop,-
00:05:55Summarizing clients fantasy
00:05:55Caroline Lee – pop ah. (crosstalk)
00:05:55John Krumboltz All right, so, so that, that’s the offer. Ah, you did, you, you, we want you to work at two different jobs…
00:06:00Caroline Lee Uh hmm.
00:06:00John Krumboltz …the, ah, the, the counseling center at the university…
00:06:05Caroline Lee Uh hmm.
00:06:05John Krumboltz …and then, and then the community, ah, center…(crosstalk)
00:06:05Caroline Lee Uh hmm. (crosstalk)
00:06:05John Krumboltz …and they specializes in Asian-American issues, okay. And, and, and the pay is gonna be how much, uhm, what, what, you know, then, in a fantasy, what, how much pay are you gonna get for this?
00:06:20Caroline Lee Uhm, six figures.
00:06:20John Krumboltz Six figure, okay. (crosstalk)
00:06:20Caroline Lee Uh hmm. (crosstalk)
00:06:20John Krumboltz A hundred thousand or more per year?
00:06:25Caroline Lee Uh hmm.
00:06:25John Krumboltz Okay. Okay. And, uhm, and, and, and what are the terms, ah, are you, ah, are you asking for?
00:06:35Caroline Lee Uhm, so being able to sched my, set my own schedule.
00:06:40John Krumboltz And set your own schedule…
00:06:40Caroline Lee Uh hmm. (crosstalk)
00:06:40John Krumboltz …as to how may hours you spend here and how many hours you spend there.
00:06:45Caroline Lee Uh hmm.
00:06:45John Krumboltz Depending on what, what, what you think is most important to do.
00:06:45Caroline Lee Uh hmm.
00:06:45John Krumboltz Uh hmm, okay, all right, all right, that, that’s great. Now, uhm, now-
00:06:55Asking for an action Now that might make the fantasy happen
00:06:55John Krumboltz – your wish is going to be granted if, if what would you have to do now to make that happen?
00:07:10Caroline Lee Uh hmm. Uhm, well, I would have to be a licensed psychologist for… (crosstalk)
00:07:15John Krumboltz Uh hmm. (crosstalk)
00:07:15Caroline Lee …that to happen.
00:07:15John Krumboltz All right, so you, so, that, that’s the one thing you’re gonna have to work toward… (crosstalk)
00:07:20Caroline Lee Uh hmm. (crosstalk)
00:07:20John Krumboltz …to becoming a licensed psychologist. (crosstalk)
00:07:20Caroline Lee Yeah. But then another issue is, since right now, I’m doing my internship, I’m trying to figure out… (crosstalk)
00:07:25John Krumboltz Hmm. (crosstalk)
00:07:25Caroline Lee …if counseling is the best fit for me, too, and it’s, coz I’m not, I haven’t, you know, had the opportunity to do it as a real occupation.
00:07:35John Krumboltz Uh hmm. (crosstalk)
00:07:35Caroline Lee So, I feel like I don’t know exactly if, what if, you know, I go into that job and it’s, I don’t like counseling later.
00:07:45Acknowledging that the client might not like a future job
00:07:45John Krumboltz Well that could happen.
00:07:45Caroline Lee Uh hmm.
00:07:45John Krumboltz It could go, it, that could easily happen that you could, you could get this great offer and you to say “Oh, that sounds perfect”, and you could go and you could start working there and, and, and you’re doing some counseling in the counseling center and you say, “Gosh, I hate this. These people come in with all these terrible problems, I have to listen to them, and, and I get so bored with them. I gotta do something else,” see, you might say that, okay. Now, would that be a catastrophe for you if, ah, if you have to change your mind?
00:08:15Caroline Lee Uhm, not a catastrophe but it’d be disappointing to I guess feel that I’ve put all this energy into doing this and then I don’t like it (laughs).
00:08:30Refuting the metaphor that training is an investment that must be preserved
00:08:30John Krumboltz Well, it, it might seem that way but, but there’s another way of looking at this, see. It, it, because this does happen to a lot of people. The, they start off in one direction and they find out, “Hey this is not at all what I thought it would be. (crosstalk)
00:08:45Caroline Lee Uh hmm.
00:08:45John Krumboltz And, and I really don’t like doing this…
00:08:50Caroline Lee Yeah.
00:08:50John Krumboltz …and, but they, but they, but they’ll to themselves, “Hey I’ve invested so much time and money into this field that I’ve gotta stick into it… (crosstalk)
00:09:00Caroline Lee Uh hmm.
00:09:00John Krumboltz …stick with it because, ah, otherwise I lose my investment”, okay? Now, I don’t know if this is what you were sort of worried about. But there’s another way of looking at it, which is, that it’s not an investment that you knew…
00:09:15Caroline Lee Uh hmm.
00:09:15John Krumboltz …because everything that you have learned as part of your training is going to be good for you no matter where you go. Now, I bet, you are learning a lot of counseling skills, okay. Now, wherever you go, those counseling skills are gonna be valuable.
00:09:30Caroline Lee Yeah. That’s true. (crosstalk)
00:09:35John Krumboltz So, so, so even if, even if you discover that your… (crosstalk)
00:09:40Caroline Lee Uh hmm. (crosstalk)
00:09:40John Krumboltz …you, you, your, your wish comes true…
00:09:45Caroline Lee Uh hmm. (crosstalk)
00:09:45John Krumboltz …and you get this, this job with the two roles and, and one of them you don’t like, you might say, “Well, hell with it, I’m gonna, I’m gonna quit doing that and I’m gonna spend more time with the other one… (crosstalk)
00:09:55Caroline Lee Uh hmm.
00:10:00John Krumboltz …but then, but then you might discover, “Hey, this other job I don’t like either.”
00:10:00Caroline Lee Yeah. I guess it’s the fear of like not having, or the fear of, “Well, if I don’t like this, then what would I do then”, kinda thing, the fear of not knowing.
00:10:15John Krumboltz Right. The fear of not knowing… (crosstalk)
00:10:15Caroline Lee Yeah, what,
00:10:15John Krumboltz …and what’s gonna happen next? (crosstalk)
00:10:15Caroline Lee what’s the backup plan if that doesn’t work out?
00:10:20Remaining flexible at the time unexpected events occur
00:10:20John Krumboltz And that’s, oh boy, now you come right down to the heart of the matter.
00:10:20Caroline Lee Uh hmm.
00:10:20John Krumboltz What’s the back-up plan in case, ah, this doesn’t work out, and you think what’s, ah, am, ah, am I gonna just go down the tube, is that gonna be the end of life, see. And, and the, the, the Happenstance Learning Approach is that unexpected things always happen…
00:10:40Caroline Lee Uh hmm.
00:10:40John Krumboltz …and one of the unexpected things is that you might not like what you have been trained to do.
00:10:45Caroline Lee Yeah.
00:10:45John Krumboltz And, and, and see it and you, and you worry about that as if, coz you don’t have a back-up plan, see. (crosstalk)
00:10:50Caroline Lee Uh hmm.
00:10:50John Krumboltz But the truth is that if something like that happens, you figure out something else to do, okay? It’s not the end world. This is, this is the whole joy of this approach is-
00:11:10Making back-up plans is unnecessary and a waste of time
00:11:10John Krumboltz – that you remain flexible all the time, and if plan A doesn’t work out, you go to plan B and, but you don’t have a plan B as yet. It doesn’t matter, you make up plan B when you get there…
00:11:20Caroline Lee Uh hmm.
00:11:20John Krumboltz and if plan B doesn’t work, now you go to plan C, but you don’t know what that as yet, but you wait until plan B goes down the tube and then (laughs) you figure out plan C. You don’t have to plan your whole life in advance.
00:11:35Caroline Lee So, so you think that if, uhm, for now, ah, it would be best to just go with what I think is a good plan now and then if it’s not a good plan later, then just worry about it then, not worry, now if I don’t like it later?
00:11:50Keeping the focus on the client’s views
00:11:50John Krumboltz What do you think?
00:11:50Caroline Lee (laugh) Uhm, I think that’s what you’re telling me (laughs).
00:12:00John Krumboltz (laughs) Well, I think it’s what I’m telling you, but, but I wanna know what you think.
00:12:00Caroline Lee Uh hmm. Uhm, I think, ideally, that would, that would be the best thing to do in terms of focusing now on what, uhm, I think would be the best option at this point in my life… (crosstalk)
00:12:20John Krumboltz Uh hmm. Uh hmm.
00:12:20Caroline Lee Uhm, and try to not be concerned about what’s going, going to happen later.
00:12:25Taking one step at a time while doing high-quality work
00:12:25John Krumboltz Ah, we could go, we could, we could spend our whole life making plans, none of which would work.
00:12:30Caroline Lee Uh hmm.
00:12:30John Krumboltz Okay. So, so what, what I have found is that you sort of take life one step at a time and you, and you try things that you think you would like, and you do the best you can…
00:12:45Caroline Lee Uh hmm. (crosstalk)
00:12:50John Krumboltz …in those jobs, and if they don’t work out the way you want, well, try something else.
00:12:55Caroline Lee Well, how do I figure out if counseling is the best fit for me to do? (crosstalk)
00:13:00Using practicum, internships and part-time work are useful methods for finding enjoyable work
00:13:00John Krumboltz You won’t know until you become a full-time counselor.
00:13:05Caroline Lee Okay.
00:13:05John Krumboltz Okay. Or a half-time counselor.
00:13:05Caroline Lee So there’s no way, like now in training, to find like…
00:13:10John Krumboltz Well, (crosstalk)
00:13:10Caroline Lee …figure that out? (crosstalk)
00:13:10John Krumboltz what you’re, what you’re doing, you’re doing some counseling now in your internship, right? (crosstalk)
00:13:15Caroline Lee Yeah.
00:13:15John Krumboltz In your practicum?
00:13:15Caroline Lee Uh hmm.
00:13:15John Krumboltz How do you like it?
00:13:15Caroline Lee Uhm, well, I’m working with the children, and I’ve worked with couples… (crosstalk)
00:13:20John Krumboltz Yes. (crosstalk)
00:13:20Caroline Lee …and I’ve worked with adults. So, I enjoyed the child, working with the children but it’s kind of difficult because it’s not, a lot of it is play therapy… (crosstalk)
00:13:30John Krumboltz Uh hmm. (crosstalk)
00:13:30Caroline Lee …and getting the hang of that is different than talk therapy…
00:13:35John Krumboltz Uh hmm.
00:13:35Caroline Lee …with adults.
00:13:35John Krumboltz Okay. (crosstalk)
00:13:35Caroline Lee I know for sure I don’t want to do couple’s counseling.
00:13:40John Krumboltz You know that for sure?
00:13:40Caroline Lee I know that for sure. Couple’s counseling (laughs) is just… (crosstalk)
00:13:40John Krumboltz Okay. That, that. (crosstalk)
00:13:45Caroline Lee …I don’t think I can handle that.
00:13:45John Krumboltz All right, okay, okay. (crosstalk)
00:13:45Giving permission to change one’s mind later about the desirability of specific work tasks
00:13:45Caroline Lee So, so. (crosstalk)
00:13:45John Krumboltz So, so for right now, now see, ah, you might change your mind later on.
00:13:50Caroline Lee Yeah.
00:13:50John Krumboltz I mean, after you, after you get married… (crosstalk)
00:13:50Caroline Lee Uh hmm. (crosstalk)
00:13:50John Krumboltz …and you might say, “Hey! I wanna help people figure out how to get along with their spouse.”
00:13:55Caroline Lee Yeah.
00:13:55John Krumboltz But right now, that’s not, that’s not on your radar screen? (crosstalk)
00:14:00Caroline Lee Yeah.
00:14:00John Krumboltz Fine, (crosstalk)
00:14:00Caroline Lee Uh hmm. (crosstalk)
00:14:00John Krumboltz fine. So you’re interested in working with children and, and ah,
00:14:05Caroline Lee Maybe like a college population.
00:14:05John Krumboltz and with a college population.
00:14:10Caroline Lee Uh hmm. But I haven’t had that much opportunity to work with college age yet.
00:14:10John Krumboltz Okay. Uhm, do you like working with children?
00:14:15Caroline Lee Yeah. I really enjoy…
00:14:15John Krumboltz Are you really working with children? (crosstalk)
00:14:20Caroline Lee …being around child, yeah, but then, I feel like working with children and counseling children is kind of different.
00:14:25John Krumboltz Well, okay. Because you, because of the sort of the, the talk counseling doesn’t work with the children. That would get some. (crosstalk)
00:14:30Caroline Lee It’s, it’s more difficult, yeah.
00:14:35John Krumboltz Yeah, yeah. So, you, so you have to approach the children in a different way…
00:14:35Caroline Lee Yeah. (crosstalk)
00:14:35John Krumboltz through, through playing things.
00:14:40Caroline Lee Uh hmm.
00:14:40John Krumboltz Okay. Uhm, but,-
00:14:40Seeing advantages of trying out a variety of work activities and settings
00:14:40John Krumboltz – but, but, the, the, really to me the, the wonderful thing about your doing right now is you’re trying out these things.
00:14:50Caroline Lee Yeah.
00:14:50John Krumboltz And you might try doing some different things for the children.
00:14:50Caroline Lee Uh hmm.
00:14:55John Krumboltz I don’t know what kind of games you’re playing with them maybe. Maybe you wanna experiment with some different kinds of games, get, get, get them involved and… (crosstalk)
00:15:00Caroline Lee Uh hmm. (crosstalk)
00:15:00John Krumboltz thinking about. Their social skills, let’s say. And some of the children are, are mean to each other, I mean do you ever have children that are bullying each other?
00:15:10Caroline Lee Yeah. I have the ones being bullied and the one bullying.
00:15:15Encouraging experimentation with different ways of working on difficult problems
00:15:15John Krumboltz Well, there you go, you see. (crosstalk)
00:15:15Caroline Lee Yeah. (crosstalk)
00:15:20John Krumboltz I mean, and, and, and this is not a very happy situation for, especially the child that’s being bullied…
00:15:25Caroline Lee Uh hmm.
00:15:25John Krumboltz …and, and you wanna, you probably wanna get in there and figure out something that really help, (crosstalk)
00:15:25Caroline Lee Yeah. (crosstalk)
00:15:25John Krumboltz Right?
00:15:30Caroline Lee Uh hmm.
00:15:30John Krumboltz And well, would that be kind of, ah, interesting challenge for you to deal with?
00:15:35Caroline Lee Yeah, that’s kind of like the stuff I’m dealing with now already.
00:15:40John Krumboltz Yeah, yeah, yeah, and do you like doing that?
00:15:40Caroline Lee Yeah, I do.
00:15:40Sensing and feelings
00:15:40John Krumboltz You sound a little doubtful?
00:15:45Caroline Lee (laughs) Uhm, I guess it depends on, you know, how, I guess for me I really like to know that I’ve made a difference or I’ve helped…
00:15:55John Krumboltz Yes. (crosstalk)
00:15:55Caroline Lee …and with children, in that kind of situation, you don’t, and with counseling, I think in general, you don’t get those immediate results and I like to know that, you know… (crosstalk)
00:16:05John Krumboltz Yes, yes. (crosstalk)
00:16:05Caroline Lee …I am, I’m being productive and helpful… (crosstalk)
00:16:05John Krumboltz All right. (crosstalk)
00:16:05Caroline Lee And that, uhm, you know, what I’m doing, does make some sort of a change issue(ph).
00:16:10Using a desired change in behavior as an indicator of success
00:16:10John Krumboltz But, but if the bully stops bullying…
00:16:15Caroline Lee Uh hmm.
00:16:15John Krumboltz …wouldn’t that be a wonderful change? (crosstalk)
00:16:15Caroline Lee Yeah. That would.
00:16:20John Krumboltz All right. And so you, but you, so you could observe whether… (crosstalk)
00:16:20Caroline Lee Uh hmm. (crosstalk)
00:16:20John Krumboltz …that happens or not. And that would make you happy if it did happen?
00:16:25Caroline Lee Yeah.
00:16:25John Krumboltz And if it didn’t happen, you’d say, “Hmm, I have to try something else.”
00:16:30Caroline Lee Yeah.
00:16:30John Krumboltz So, so what, what impresses me so far in what you have told me is that-
00:16:35Giving positive reinforcement for current actions
00:16:35John Krumboltz – that you are already doing the kinds of things, trying out things and testing them to see how you like them.
00:16:40Caroline Lee Yeah. Next, next year, I’m gonna be in the high school instead, to try on a different population…
00:16:50John Krumboltz Okay. That’s great. (crosstalk)
00:16:50Caroline Lee …to see how that is.
00:16:50John Krumboltz That’s great. So then you’ll see what it’s like to counsel with high school students.
00:16:55Caroline Lee Yeah. I was debating whether or not I should stay with elementary coz it seems, it would be the easier thing to do.
00:17:00Giving more reinforcement for trying a new work setting — not the easiest alternative
00:17:00John Krumboltz It would be the easier thing, but you wouldn’t find out what it was like to work with high school students.
00:17:05Caroline Lee Yeah.
00:17:05John Krumboltz And it sounds to me like you wanted to sort of test the waters…
00:17:10Caroline Lee Uh hmm.
00:17:10John Krumboltz And see. See, I, I think what you’re doing is just, ah, really great, Caroline. You’re just, you’re just trying out these different things and, ah, you’re testing the waters…
00:17:20Caroline Lee Uh hmm.
00:17:20John Krumboltz to see what it’s like and, ah, and you don’t have to plan the whole, your whole life.
00:17:30Caroline Lee Yeah. I suppose it’s the fear of like wanting to like master something and not being, you know, not being able to reach that point just yet. It’s kind of, you know, the hard part, (laugh) too.
00:17:45Advocating constant learning, not mastery
00:17:45John Krumboltz You know, I, I don’t know anybody that really has mastered, ah, anything, you know. We’re, we’re, we’re all, we’re all learning to any sort of, especially in this, the field of counseling, we’re all learning everyday,-
00:17:55Self-disclosing
00:17:55John Krumboltz – everyday, I learn something new.
00:18:00Caroline Lee Yeah. (crosstalk)
00:18:00John Krumboltz Sometimes people ask me, “Well, what, what, what do you do,” and I say, “Ah, well, I’m a learner”, “A learner, what’s that?” “Well, I’m, I’m just, ah, my job is just to keep on learning all the time, everywhere I go.” “Wow, an interesting job” (laughs). See, and, and, and it’s a, ah, if, if you, if you think of your activities and so… (crosstalk)
00:18:20Caroline Lee Uh hmm. (crosstalk)
00:18:20John Krumboltz …constantly a learning and improving your skill, and you never, you never master anything, really, to even, see, a lot thing that I, I love that I play tennis, and I, I’d like to watch some of the really top tennis players.
00:18:35Normalizing errors
00:18:35John Krumboltz And, and, you know, they all make unforced errors, every single one, the very best tennis player in the world makes ten or twelve unforced errors in a set.
00:18:45Caroline Lee Yeah.
00:18:50John Krumboltz Nobody, nobody masters the game.
00:18:50Caroline Lee Uh hmm.
00:18:50John Krumboltz Ah, and the same is true, football, basketball, I mean nobody is perfect.
00:19:00Showing that improvement is possible — perfection is not
00:19:00John Krumboltz And so, so, so trying to be a master in the sense of being perfect at something is impossible. And, and, and if you try to be perfect, you’re gonna be unhappy your whole life.
00:19:10Caroline Lee I, I, I think that’s true. And I like your idea about not, you know, planning having, needing everything at planned…
00:19:20John Krumboltz Yeah.
00:19:20Caroline Lee I, but I think it’s harder for me to, you know, like how do I put that into, you know, I think that’s, that’s true but to really believe that and not worry about that. I, I, how do I-
00:19:35Stimulating thought about the origin of the belief that life should be planned in advance
00:19:35John Krumboltz I, I, I, I… (crosstalk)
00:19:35Caroline Lee – go without doing that. (crosstalk)
00:19:35John Krumboltz I understand, (laughs) I understand what you’re saying, I understand what you’re saying, because, why, and why is that true? Why is it that we think that we should plan our whole life in advance?
00:19:45Caroline Lee Uhm, I don’t know.
00:19:45Sharing view that the necessity of planning has been pervasively taught; in home and school
00:19:45John Krumboltz See, I think we’ve been trained to believe that.
00:19:50Caroline Lee Yeah.
00:19:50John Krumboltz See, and one of the things I’m trying to do with the Happenstance Learning Theory Approach is to convince people that this notion that you have to plan your whole life in advance is nonsense. And, and, and, what a, but is nonsense that has been fostered by our, our whole society. You know, parents ask their children from age three, “Wha, what you, what do you wanna be when you grow up?” “Well I like to be a fireman.” “Well, I don’t think that’s what you really wanna be. I think you wanna be an investment banker.” “Wa, what’s that?” I mean, I mean, kids don’t have the slightest idea, so they, they just say whatever comes into their head. But, but the, but, but the feeling that you should plan in advance, see, it started in the home and in schools, trying to get kids to name what their future occupation is gonna be so that they take the right courses. And the whole society, ah, tries to brainwash us, into thinking we should plan life in advance. But what I have learned-
00:21:00Reporting evidence that few adults are engaged in occupations planned in advance
00:21:00John Krumboltz – from talking to many adults, if I, if I go around and I ask, you know, a hundred adults, so, ah, what job do you have now? Okay. And, and what was the job that you said you wanted when you were 18 years old. Almost none of them, at most one percent will say, ah, well, ah, I’m doing the same thing that I thought I would do when I was 18, (crosstalk)
00:21:25Caroline Lee Uh-huh. (crosstalk)
00:21:25John Krumboltz but 99 percent were now doing something, something different. So-
00:21:30Noting that people change their minds, and the available work opportunities change too
00:21:30John Krumboltz – so the way the real world works is that people cannot plan what’s going to happen in the future. And they really shouldn’t because not only, ah, will they change their mind, but the world changes around us, and there are lots of jobs that exist now that never existed before.
00:21:45Providing one more bit of positive reinforcement
00:21:45John Krumboltz So I think you’re on the right track, Caroline.
00:21:55Caroline Lee Okay, thank you.
00:21:55John Krumboltz And, and, and, ah,-
00:22:00Keeping the door open for future counseling whenever the client feels it is needed
00:22:00John Krumboltz – if you, but, if you wanna talk about it some more, ah, I’ll be available, and I’d be happy to talk to you further.
00:22:05Caroline Lee Okay. Thank you, John.
00:22:10What Was the Counselor Thinking? Michi Mizuno Interviewing John Krumboltz
00:22:10Michi Mizuno Well, uhm, first of all, I would like to thank you for this demonstration and precious time for us to learn about your theory.
00:22:20John Krumboltz It’s my pleasure.
00:22:20Michi Mizuno Thank you. Uhm, now I would like to ask some questions related to the demonstration you just showed us…
00:22:30John Krumboltz Okay. (crosstalk)
00:22:30Michi Mizuno …as well as, to related to your theory.
00:22:30John Krumboltz Okay.
00:22:30Michi Mizuno And my first question is, ah, what do you believe as the goal of career counseling?
00:22:40John Krumboltz I’m glad that’s your first question because I think the goal has been, that we’ve had, historically, for a hundred years, is obsolete.
00:22:50No longer merely declaring a future occupation
00:22:50John Krumboltz The goal has been to help people make a career decision as if this was the…
00:22:55Michi Mizuno Hmm.
00:22:55John Krumboltz …thing that they were gonna do for the rest of their life and we got into the matching model of, ah, measuring people’s, ah, the traits, and interest and values and everything and matching them up with what we thought were the traits and values of various occupations, define the one best match. That was the goal.
00:23:20Michi Mizuno Hmm.
00:23:20John Krumboltz And it is no longer appropriate. It might have been at one time, but it is no longer appropriate because people don’t just want to be matched to one particular occupation. People basically want to lead a happy life.
00:23:35A better goal: Helping clients learn to take actions to achieve more satisfying career and personal lives
00:23:35John Krumboltz And our goal as career counselors should be to help people find a satisfying life for themselves. And what is satisfying today may not be satisfying tomorrow. And so, they may, they should be free to change. There may be opportunities tomorrow that don’t exist today. And so, if something better comes along, they ought to be, feel free to change their mind and move into a new direction. So, our goal should be to help everybody create satisfying lives for themselves, not just to make a career decision.
00:24:10Michi Mizuno Uh hmm. Well, with that goal in your mind, what kind of approach have you taken in that demonstration?
00:24:20John Krumboltz Well, when I was, ah, talking with Caroline, (crosstalk)
00:24:25Michi Mizuno Hmm. (crosstalk)
00:24:25John Krumboltz I was trying to help her see that, ah, she, she was kind of thinking about how she should plan her whole life out in advance-
00:24:35Giving permission to try alternatives, make mistakes and change direction
00:24:35John Krumboltz – and she was worried about just doing what she was doing now ‘coz it might not be working, she might not, might not be happy with it later. And I’m trying to get her permission to change. If she wants to change in the future, it’s okay. It’s okay to make mistakes. You can try something, whoa, that’s the wrong thing. It’s okay to discover it’s the wrong thing and then to change, okay. The, the mistake that some people make is to think that whatever they have done in the past is an investment that they have to somehow justify in the future by doing the same thing. And that is nonsense because if they were unhappy doing it in the past, they don’t, they shouldn’t feel that they have to continue to be unhappy… (crosstalk)
00:25:20Michi Mizuno Hmm. (crosstalk)
00:25:20John Krumboltz …in the future. They ought to be doing something that makes them happier.
00:25:20Michi Mizuno It’s more, ah, impactful attitude from the career counselors instead of just listening to the clients.
00:25:30Providing a mutual conversation actively engaging the client in the process
00:25:30John Krumboltz Oh, well, yes. I, (crosstalk)
00:25:30Michi Mizuno Just listening, yeah. (crosstalk)
00:25:30John Krumboltz I think it is.
00:25:30Michi Mizuno Yeah.
00:25:30John Krumboltz I think they do. I think that the, I think, there’s a conversation … (crosstalk)
00:25:35Michi Mizuno Uh hmm. (crosstalk)
00:25:35John Krumboltz …between two people who are both trying to achieve the same thing… (crosstalk)
00:25:40Michi Mizuno Uh hmm. (crosstalk)
00:25:40John Krumboltz …which is to help that client lead a more satisfying life, and the, and that counselor is very much engaged…
00:25:50Michi Mizuno Uh hmm. (crosstalk)
00:25:50John Krumboltz …in wanting to help the counselor do that, and, and is perfectly willing to throw out ideas that might help, and ah, to make clear the process of career counseling that would engage that client in thinking in a different way.
00:26:00Michi Mizuno Uh hmm. Okay. Because a lot of career counselors, ah, follow the theory of, more like, ah, Roger Rayon(ph) theory, that it is important to listen to the client?
00:26:10John Krumboltz Yes.
00:26:10Michi Mizuno However, it seems your approach is rather, ah, influential to the client, more like active that’s, that’s,
00:26:20John Krumboltz I see. I see. (crosstalk)
00:26:20Michi Mizuno that could be importantly. (crosstalk)
00:26:25John Krumboltz Well, but, but at the same time, I think… (crosstalk)
00:26:25Michi Mizuno Uh hmm. (crosstalk)
00:26:25Listening actively is of crucial importance.
00:26:25John Krumboltz …Roger’s notions about being a good listener…
00:26:25Michi Mizuno Uh hmm.
00:26:30John Krumboltz …are important.
00:26:30Michi Mizuno Uh hmm.
00:26:30John Krumboltz You know, I think being a good listener is important, especially, ah, at the very beginning when you’re trying to find out what is bothering the client. And so, so I, I, I don’t wanna let you think that it was, ah, although I didn’t spend very much time listening…
00:26:45Michi Mizuno Uh hmm.
00:26:45John Krumboltz because we had limited time when making this movie, ah,-
00:26:50Letting clients know they are being understood
00:26:50John Krumboltz – but, but, but it is important to make sure that you understand and that the client knows that you understand, that you, the, the counselor, understand what the, ah, client is feeling.
00:27:05Michi Mizuno Uh hmm. Uh hmm. I see. Yes. I see. Yes. Uhm, how do you think the, uhm, in your opinion, how do you think the session went? Ah.
00:27:15John Krumboltz Well, considering the fact that we had a short amount of time, I thought it went very well. (laughs)
00:27:20Michi Mizuno Uh hmm.
00:27:20John Krumboltz I thought Caroline was a wonderful client, and she, ah, explained what she was doing and, and it was, this was not a role-play, I mean I didn’t know what she was gonna say. I didn’t know what I was gonna say.
00:27:30Acknowledging that counselors can make mistakes too
00:27:30John Krumboltz I might have made some mistakes, I probably did. Ah, and maybe when I see the movie, I’ll say, “My gosh, John, you sure did a lousy job there,” but, I don’t know, I can’t remember what it was that I made mistake right now. So, so, ah, I’m, ah, I’m okay with it. But, I, I thought it went well.
00:27:50Michi Mizuno Uh hmm.
00:27:50John Krumboltz Ah, what do you think?
00:27:50Michi Mizuno Yeah, I think, uhm, it was, I think it, your approach empowered the clients a lot.
00:27:55John Krumboltz Uh hmm. (crosstalk)
00:27:55Michi Mizuno And because she was more sure of herself not making decision right now.
00:28:05John Krumboltz It was okay for her not make a decision… (crosstalk)
00:28:05Michi Mizuno Yeah. (crosstalk)
00:28:05John Krumboltz …right now?
00:28:05Michi Mizuno It was okay for her.
00:28:05John Krumboltz Uh hmm.
00:28:10Michi Mizuno And, uhm, I saw that change…
00:28:10John Krumboltz Uh hmm. Uh hmm. (crosstalk)
00:28:10Michi Mizuno …in the client’s face, and, yeah.
00:28:15John Krumboltz Okay.
00:28:15Michi Mizuno Uhm, okay. Well, there are some questions from the members of JCDA.
00:28:20John Krumboltz Okay.
00:28:20Michi Mizuno And I would like to ask you some of the questions from that.
00:28:25John Krumboltz Sure.
00:28:25Michi Mizuno Ah, I learn in your book that although you promote Happenstance, you are now opposed to planning. How to recognize whether once you carefully make a plan ahead or take an action with the planned Happenstance attitude?
00:28:40John Krumboltz I see, see, I don’t think that it is necessary to decide in advance, ah, or whether you make a plan… (crosstalk)
00:28:50Michi Mizuno Uh hmm. (crosstalk)
00:28:50John Krumboltz …or whether you, whether you’re gonna take some action. I mean, ah,-
00:28:50Doing what makes sense now
00:28:50John Krumboltz – I mean, these are, these are choices that you make, this is part of the happenstance approach, is that you do what’s makes sense at the moment, okay.
00:29:00Planning the next step is perfectly OK
00:29:00John Krumboltz So, ah, so, I have no objection to planning. I mean planning is great to do if you wanna do it.
00:29:10Michi Mizuno Uh hmm.
00:29:10John Krumboltz Ah, the mistake-
00:29:10Not letting a prior plan dictate future actions
00:29:10John Krumboltz – is thinking that once you have made a plan that you must stick with it forever.
00:29:15Michi Mizuno I see.
00:29:20John Krumboltz I mean that’s the problem. Okay. So, so, if it makes you happy to make a plan, do it.
00:29:25Michi Mizuno Uh hmm.
00:29:25John Krumboltz Go ahead, make a plan. Ah, and, and start, maybe following the plan. And then you say, “Whoa, wait a minute, ah, that’s not working out the way I thought. I think maybe I better change my plan.” Well, you can change your plan…
00:29:35Michi Mizuno Uh hmm. (crosstalk)
00:29:35John Krumboltz …or, you, or something might happen that shows you an opportunity that you never though about before… (crosstalk)
00:29:40Michi Mizuno Uh hmm. (crosstalk)
00:29:40John Krumboltz …and you say, “Wow, if I could just do that.” Well, do it.
00:29:45Michi Mizuno Uh hmm.
00:29:45John Krumboltz Try it.
00:29:45Michi Mizuno Uhm, the next question is, uhm, your Happenstance theor, learning theory is very popular in Japan, and many Japanese career counseling practitioners find it fascinating. I believe that book luck is no accident, tells us an importance to take an action. Now, the question is, what is your opinion on the importance of reflecting and adding meanings to, to the actions taken? In, uhm.
00:30:15John Krumboltz Well, I, I, I think that, yes-
00:30:20Reflecting and thinking about the consequences of actions are necessary
00:30:20John Krumboltz – you do want to think about…
00:30:20Michi Mizuno Uh hmm. (crosstalk)
00:30:20John Krumboltz …the actions that you’re taking. You wanna think before you take the action… (crosstalk)
00:30:25Michi Mizuno Uh hmm. (crosstalk)
00:30:25John Krumboltz …you wanna think because it’s the good thing to do, and, and while you’re doing the action, you wanna think, “Hey, is this fun or not?” And after the action is over, you think, “Hmm, do I wanna do that again or do I wanna do something else?” So, so, yes, you’re thinking about it all the time you’re doing it.
00:30:40Michi Mizuno Uh hmm.
00:30:40John Krumboltz So, yes, I think you are reflecting and thinking about, and considering your actions in terms of a bigger, ah, (crosstalk)
00:30:50Michi Mizuno Uh hmm. (crosstalk)
00:30:50John Krumboltz framework that you might have in your life as to what is making you happy and what making you satisfied, how it’s affecting the other people in your life. So, yeah, you’ll think about all those things.
00:31:00Michi Mizuno Uh hmm.
00:31:00John Krumboltz You don’t just, you don’t just go blindly…
00:31:00Michi Mizuno Uh hmm.(crosstalk)
00:31:00John Krumboltz …making one action after another…
00:31:00Michi Mizuno Uh hmm. (crosstalk)
00:31:05John Krumboltz …without ever thinking about it…
00:31:05Michi Mizuno Uh hmm. (crosstalk)
00:31:05John Krumboltz …no, you, you think about it.
00:31:05Michi Mizuno Uh hmm.
00:31:05John Krumboltz Sure.
00:31:05Michi Mizuno Uhm, this is the next, next question. Uhm, this is the question from the member, one of the members of…
00:31:15John Krumboltz Okay.
00:31:15Michi Mizuno …JCDA.
00:31:15John Krumboltz Okay.
00:31:15Michi Mizuno I am afraid that sometimes pla, Happenstance theory gives me a good excuse not to make decisions and avoid planning. How do you think about this? Okay?
00:31:30John Krumboltz Well, I think it’s wrong.
00:31:30Michi Mizuno (laughs) Yes.
00:31:30Not waiting for a lucky break.
00:31:30John Krumboltz I think that, ah, the, ah, Happenstance approach is just the opposite…
00:31:35Michi Mizuno Uh hmm.
00:31:35John Krumboltz …which is, that you don’t wait for something to happen. You make it happen.
00:31:40Michi Mizuno Uh hmm.
00:31:40John Krumboltz And you make it happen by trying things out. So you have to take some action.
00:31:45Trying out alternative actions without knowing their consequences
00:31:45John Krumboltz And, you don’t always know, in fact, you almost never know what the consequences of the every action are going to be.
00:31:55Needing actions to generate unexpected events
00:31:55John Krumboltz You hope that it will be favorable, but you have to try it and see, okay? So, so the worst thing you can do-
00:32:00Participating, helping and talking with others
00:32:00John Krumboltz – is just to sit in your room, and, ah, play, ah, with your video games and, ah, and wait for the telephone to ring, where somebody offers you, ah, ah, ah, a very magnificent job. It will never happen that way.
00:32:15Michi Mizuno Uh hmm.
00:32:15John Krumboltz You gotta go out and you gotta be doing something and helping people, and, ah, showing your face and meeting people and talking to them about what you are interested in and what you’re doing, and, and, ah,-
00:32:30Remaining alert to new opportunities
00:32:30John Krumboltz – ah, and, and being alert to opportunities that you might be able take advantage of.
00:32:35Michi Mizuno Uh hmm.
00:32:35John Krumboltz So, so, no. You don’t just, ah, you just don’t sit and do nothing. You have to be active all the time and alert to what might happen so that you can seize opportunities when they come along.
00:32:50Michi Mizuno Uh hmm.
00:32:50What Was the Effect for the Client? Michi Mizuno Interviewing Caroline Lee
00:32:50Michi Mizuno Hi, Caroline.
00:32:55Caroline Lee Hello.
00:33:00Michi Mizuno Thank you very much for your demonstration. Uhm, now I would like to ask you a question. Uhm, how was your experience after a counseling?
00:33:10Caroline Lee Uhm, it was a good experience, I think-
00:33:10Getting helpful feedback
00:33:10Caroline Lee – just to be able to have the opportunity to share, uhm, you know, some of my thoughts… (crosstalk)
00:33:15Michi Mizuno Hmm. (crosstalk)
00:33:15Caroline Lee …and concerns uhm, with the professional and to hear feedback about what I’m doing. And, uhm, I think it was helpful to,-
00:33:25Not needing to plan every future step
00:33:25Caroline Lee – to hear that. I don’t need to plan out…
00:33:30Michi Mizuno Uh hmm. (crosstalk)
00:33:30Caroline Lee …every single, uhm, you know, step in my life, although that’s my inclination… (crosstalk)
00:33:35Michi Mizuno Uh hmm. (crosstalk)
00:33:35Caroline Lee …and I think the part of my personality. But it’s good to hear that-
00:33:35Changing later is OK
00:33:35Caroline Lee -I can take, you know, what, do the steps which I feel is beneficial for me right now. And later, if it doesn’t turn out to be what I wanted to do long term, then, ah, it’s okay that, uhm, I change and I could keep, uhm, using the skills that I learned… (crosstalk)
00:33:55Michi Mizuno Hmm. (crosstalk)
00:33:55Caroline Lee …in a different profession as well.
00:34:00Getting reassurance that current actions will be helpful
00:34:00Caroline Lee So, I think it was good to hear that, uhm, I have, you know, various options and, it was also good to, to, to just hear reassurance that what I’m doing now…
00:34:10Michi Mizuno Uh hmm.
00:34:10Caroline Lee …is a good step towards, you know, my future goals, and that I am, you know, doing, uhm, what I can now in developing, uhm, my future career.
00:34:20Michi Mizuno Uh hmm. I see.
00:34:20Counselor John Krumboltz Client Caroline Lee Interviewer Michi Mizuno Camera Steve Longstreth Ron Locey Sound Sandy Hain Editor John Krumboltz Technical Consultant Kimberly Haywoth Stanford University Academic Technology Lab Script Nobody Reference Krumboltz, J.D., & Levin, A. (2004). Luck Is No Accident Making The Most of Happenstance in Your Life and Career. Atascadero, CA: Impact Publishers Copyright © 2008 John D. Krumboltz
00:34:20END TRANSCRIPT
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